Friday, July 27, 2018

Hunt For Wolverine: Mystery In Madripoor #4 Spoiler Variant by Terry Dodson


Disclaimer: The Spoiler Variant Cover for Hunt For Wolverine: Mystery in Madripoor #4 started making the rounds. The cover art by Terry Dodson was released today by Previews World and Forbidden Planet.

As you can guess, the cover is very spoilery, and we won't be posting it until the final issue is released on August 22 or when Marvel makes an official statement about it. If you want to be surprised, please avoid it.

Now, if you're curious, check the cover HERE!

126 comments:

Anonymous said...

People are going to complain about the story not making sense, but who cares, because LOOK AT HER

Unknown said...

Oh my god, she's back!

Erik Stoop said...

That would make her even more powerful, because she could then also steal souls. Maybe she would not be a ninja anymore though.

AKO Star said...

Is that she original body ?! with her psionic powers ?! OMG !!!! AM I DREAMING ?!

AKO Star said...

There's a possibility though. Because if she's breaking out from Saphire then she's got that young body with full strength, perhaps she'll train herself. Either way This is awesome !

Unknown said...

Original body + psychic weapons (so she's still a ninja) = best Psylocke ever

Anonymous said...

Erik.. how is she not a ninja?? LOL She's creating the fucking psychic knife.. TWO of them.. the message is clear.

FSaker said...

Beautiful cover!

But... is the woman standing Psylocke or Revanche? I'm cool with Betsy returning to her original appearance (I'm not saying "original body" as it was destroyed by the Hand), but I'm not cool with the idea of Kwannon returning... even though the uniform worn by the woman standing is great.

Anonymous said...

FSaker, seriously? Why would in God's name would Marvel logically kill off Betsy and replace her with Kwannon?

It's PSYLOCKE. Wow, you guys are so dense

Anonymous said...

lmao @ people thinking it's Kwannon or her in Styx's body. Zub teased the cover in the most obvious way imaginable. He knows what MANY Psylocke fans have wanted for a long time. After Styxx's body is destroyed, the "ghost from the past" is probably her original, British body. Who knows why or how it ends up there, but building that much hype around Kwannon or Sapphire Styx's body would be ridiculous.

FSaker said...

Anonymous, I didn't say Marvel would kill off Betsy. The cover shows two women, and we can't tell just from it if the woman lying down is dead or just unconscious.

Yes, Betsy getting a body like her original one is the most likely scenario. I'm just saying that with Marvel, we can never be sure. Remember how Fraction's Sisterhood arc heavily teased at her being back to her original body. Yeah.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

YES!!!!!!

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

I so hope this is not a bait and switch, like what Fraction did to us.

Antone Poitier said...

OMG, if this is real... YES BETSY!

Vigmed said...

Keeping my hype in check till after the issue. And maybe her next book appearance after. lol

I hope this is real and she is back to her, as Fsaker put it, "original appearance." That would make the most sense and would be easiest for most readers to understand without bringing up the mess that is her past.

Anonymous said...

I'm so sad about this! I'll only be happy if they allow both women to be active. I love Japanese Betsy

Tazirai said...

Will love it, if true. But will read the issue first, before I get my hopes up. I'm going to buy this simply for the cover alone though.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Question, guys. No shade, but why would we want Kwannon back? Her character is not all that important. And if for diversity’s sake alone, we have several other Asian women in the X-Mansion, I’d rather see brought to the forefront. Also, if ahe came back, would those rooting for her return want her to be a telepath sharing half of Betsy’s power again or using her own empathic power, which as the hack retcon said she had very minor empathic powers (in other words, “I, the writer have no purpose for this character beyond being a throwaway plot device, so I’ll beas ambiguous as possible.”)?

You guys might have some good ideas for a resurrected Kwannon, but I don’t see her as even a rootable character. She was just pissed off her entire time on the team. Granted, rightfully so as she got screwed, but she never felt like “family” despite how much the writer forced that Psylocke would honor her forevermore.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rahsaan Chisolm said...


Here are just some of the characters I’d much prefer to see: Karma, Jubes, Armor, Surge, and Dust (who is Western Asian)

All instead of contrived Kwannon. I may not agree with Anonymous attacking people on here, but I do agree with him/her/them on the fact that I don’t see Marvel resurrecting that character as she was never anything more than a plot device with no substance outside of Betsy’s story. I am curious why anyone would be interested in her aside from the angle of her being an Asian woman mutant when we have plenty of way more developed Asian woman mutants on the team who
are constantly used as wallpaper and who actually are people I would think most X-Men readers actually care about thanks to their character development unlike Kwannon who was one-dimensional and only had one emotion, anger.

Unknown said...

This is regressive. The problem of Psylocke going back to her original self can be tied to race, but also to the fact that the character really became popular to mainstream audiences after she became a ninja.

Yes, there are other Asian X-Men characters. But they are always on the sidelines while Psylocke took centre stage many times.

The change in body was a challenging processes that made Psylocke who she is today. So to undo that significant storyline, is to undo the depth to the character.

Unknown said...

lol let's be real, there wasn't anything challenging about the body swap to begin with. Right after the swap, Betsy returned to the X-Men as if nothing had happened. There wasn't any depth at all until the whole Kwannon stuff which was a mess from beginning to end. It served no purpose other than making Betsy the butt of the joke for a bunch of villains.

MellyMel said...

Why would they choose to do this in some random limited series that no one is going to remember in a few months. Oh duh, probably to sell issues. I like the asian body but whatever. She's gonna fade back into obscurity in this form i think. The body swap made her a bit more unique

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Unknown and Melly,

I respectfully disagree. I think it would be cool for her to now fully be the person she wanted to be. That is, a warrior with the face that is hers; not someone else’s face. Just like it was cool for Rogue to finally control her power.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rahsaan Chisolm said...

It’s not like she cannot reatain all her memories and experiences post Siege Perilous by looking like herself again. It actually seems like the opposite of regressive. If this happens and it’s written well (I admit that’s a lot to hope for with the X-Men these days), the character will actually have come full circle and be her own ultimate dream which is what Claremont always intended.

Anonymous said...

It's a mistake to revert her back to her original body. Although I have been a fan of British Psylocke since the Australian outback days, I think the body swap was a significant improvement. I don't buy that there are a lot of people who want the original body. Rather, it's the same relatively few voices continuously lobbying for the original body in the same online communities in a very vocal manner. It's not just about having Asian representation so it's reductive to say "oh there are plenty of other Asian characters" (which, actually, there are not enough of). The character's uniqueness has a lot to do with her visual uniqueness, and even more importantly, the combination of her visual appearance and her origins. To strip away one of those layers amounts to a watering down of her character for the sake of fan service to a niche few, imo, and will reduce her to being another (relatively) more generic telepath.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Rahsaan Chisolm said...


I see some of your points, but what makes her more visually unique than Karma with her bionic leg or Rachel with her hound marks per se? Also, does her butterfly power signature, lavender hair and psychic weaponry not make her unique versus one of the crowd?

Anonymous said...

Rahsahn, keeping post-Acts of Vengeance Psylocke wouldn't be for diversity's sake alone. It's about Psylocke being a unique character, as she is today. Let's say that there are two appealing versions of Psylocke - original Psylocke, and post-Acts of Vengeance Psylocke - each of whom have their own appeal. I like them both. And to like them both would not be about wanting to bring back Kwannon, which I agree, is not really a compelling character in and of herself (perhaps in large part because she's had very little character development). Neither would it be about just having Asian representation (which incidentally, there should be more of anyway). It's more about an appreciation for post-Acts of Vengeance Psylocke. IMO, original Psylocke and post-Acts of Vengeance Psylocke can almost each standalone as interesting characters separately... if they were both Betsy. But they can't both be Betsy (unless there were some kind of alternate reality thing, which was a device to be able to have two visual versions of Storm - Original 'Goddess' Storm and Blood 'Punk' Storm.) Perhaps having Kwannon back would serve as a similar device to be able to keep both Original Betsy and Post-Acts of Vengeance Betsy since they can't both actually be Betsy (or can they?). But it would still be a device that would require a lot of thought to develop Kwannon into a rich and likeable character. Anyway, I hope that explains one reason for why someone would want Kwannon back. (Just for disclosure purposes, I'm not necessarily a fan of Kwannon but I am a fan of Post-Acts of Vengeance Betsy first and foremost, and to a lesser extent, British Betsy. But were I to choose one, it would be post-Acts of Vengeance Betsy all the way.)

Anonymous said...

Rahsaan, to respond to your last comment, being unique is not about what makes a character *more* unique than a completely different character (like Karma with her bionic leg, or Rachel with her hound marks, the two examples you've used). It's about being individually different in an interesting way, and not possessing more of something that another character possesses. There's clearly something different about all 3 of those characters. It's a chemistry, not a quantity.

Anonymous said...

To answer your other question, what makes Psylocke appealing is not simply her butterfly insignia, her psychic knife, or her lavender (or purple) hair. Again, my view is that that would be a reduction of her character. It's about the *combination* of all those elements and how that chemistry makes her Psylocke. Put another way, it's not just her powers or her look. It's about her powers AND her look (and her history, experiences, etc.) Take away any of those elements, it's a different thing, and it reduces the character. Again, I liked Original Betsy. I like current Betsy even more. If they can find a way of preserving both, I'm down, because I think both are compelling. But to replace current Betsy with the former version is IMO problematic.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Anonymous,

Thank you for that explanation. All salient points. Admittedly, I liked Betsys pre and post siege until the Kwannon fiasco started, but even when Kwannon first appeared and claimed to be the real Bets, I recall as a kid hoping that she was as I always found the change to be something that should have been temporary and that Psylocke should have been able to have her wish of being a warrior in every sense without a completel face change.

Again though, I totally respect your view and now that you’ve actually stated it with salient arguments, I get it.

Admittedly, I’m not usually fond of most recasts in television (unless the recast wins me over) and post-Siege often felt like a recast of one of my favorites.

:-)

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Rahsahn. Just to be clear, I am a different poster than the Anonymous poster(s) in the earlier posts in this comments thread. I think I used to post here as 'Australian Outback' a few years back when Rick Remender was writing X-Force, but I kept forgetting my login info, and for a while this site removed the ability to post anonymously, I just stopped posting. I'm glad it has been brought back, to whoever runs this site, so thanks for that. Psylocke 4eva.

Anonymous said...

I mean *Rahsaan, sorry.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Thanks for the correction on my name and I totally recall you as Australian Outback!! Also, that explains why you weren’t telling us off, like Anonymous usually does. LOL.

Unknown said...

But @MellyMel, I agree with you. This new costume looks great, but she is easily forgettable as her former self. Also, yeah, why make something so significant happen in a mini-series that was one of four? Hopefully this will be temporary as the Asian Psylocke is so much more necessary to have around for the above reasons.

Similar to there being more than one anonymous here, there could ideally be two Psylockes lol.
Maybe the original be a ghost and the newer one be in real-life.
Having the old Psylocke come back in her original form could make the newer, Asian Psylocke realize that she is more layered and valid as she is right now. That would be a great story.

Also...representation matters.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Now, Unknown... LOL. You know faux representation does not count. :-p

That made me laugh. We will agree to disagree though as I respect that you all really dig post-Siege Bets. I think she’ll be just as kick ass if she gets to keep her own face. Truth be told, knowimg Marvel, this is another fakeout and you and Outback will be happy in the end. If so, I’m gonna just pour a 40 out for my girl. LOL.

Anonymous said...

I just hope she retains her ninja skills.

Anonymous said...

@Rahsaan

How is this Faux representation? She is Japanese and it does not matter that her former self was white. Genetically/physically she is an Asian women. The mind/soul has no physical traits so what matters is the body she's in. That's like saying a trans woman is a faux representation of a woman and as someone who believes they were stuck in the wrong body I could relate to Betsy. It's ridiculous to think that a character can body swap with someone who is only the same gender and race as their prime form.

All we did is gain another white female telepath that will be over shadowed by Jean Grey even more now. And yes I know there are other Asian female mutants but none of them are top tier characters who have served on a core team. Last time I checked Karma never made it into pop media like Marvel vs. Capcom or any X-men shows/movies.

Psylocke was iconic as an Asian Ninja! Nuff said!

Alex V.W said...

I'm waiting until either Uncanny starts(if she's in the lineup) or some other X-book is announced or creatively reshuffled by editorial. Wouldn't be surprised if it was a fake out like the Sisterhood cover or something that's happening in Betsy's mind due to being consumed by Sapphire.

Ashley Jordan said...

Can’t say I’m overjoyed at this, but then again I only ever knew the Asian Psylocke. Guess it all depends on what they do next with her...

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Anonymous,

I’m want to ensure that you know my reply isn’t meant to be adversarial at all. Merely challenging your argument:


I get your points and respect your view. I am cis gendered, but at the risk of not fully understanding your experience, I would not compare Betsy to a trans woman at all. Betsy doesn’t identify as a Japanese person. Hell, when this all started she was supposed to fit in among the Chinese. Also, I agree the mind transcends a d Betsy’s mind identifies as caucasian due to decades of being socialized as the construct of a white woman. She can be a white woman ninja.


Also, a better question about Karma is why did she never become mainstream when she is completely representative? Why did none of rhe Asian X-Men, like Sunfire when Asian men are vastly underrepresented as leads in American pop culture? If we’re asking this question, other than Jubes, why is Bets the socially constructed white woman i. her transcendant mind the representative?

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Also, if mind transcends as you posit, then it shouldn’t matter if she is no longer phenotypically East Asian ever again as she will be the same person. Or if she changes back and forth between looks, like Angel does within issues or like Bruce Banner does. LOL. Maybe that will be how we all compromise... Morphing back and forth. (I’m being facetious. Though, I think people actually might like that based on it being just plain weird.)

FSaker said...

"All we did is gain another white female telepath that will be over shadowed by Jean Grey even more now"

That's an interesting point. In the 1990s, I fully agree that Psylocke's status as an Asian ninja helped to keep her mainstream despite Jean and other telepaths being around. As much as many readers hate the Acts of Vengeance change, I'd say that's what saved her from having the same fate as Dazzler and Longshot (in other words, editorial limbo).

Nowadays, however, I'd say she's already established as an important character in X-Men. Regardless of which body she ends up with, I guess she'll be fine.

And it's good to know that, assuming Dodson's cover isn't misleading, her new (old) body will be dressed with a nice uniform (even though I personally prefer the uniform the other body in the cover is wearing - but hey, it's still much better than most uniforms Betsy had in both bodies, and it even has the "X" symbol on it!).

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Rahsaan. Again, just clarifying that the last Anonymous comment in the discussion is not mine.

-Australian Outback

Anonymous said...

Also, I could be wrong, but I believe it is less likely that this is a fake out this time. They went to the trouble of designing her a new costume. Assuming costumes are for combat purposes out in the field, I'd say this suggests that that's a tangible, physical Caucasian Betsy we're looking at. (If this were but a psychic manifestation of Betsy, it would be more likely for her to be wearing a historically accurate costume from her past - such as her Australian Outback armor or the 'gown' she wore before that. I don't see what purpose psychically manifesting a new combat costume like that would serve. Astral Plane costume manifestations are usually armor-like, not like this.)

Although she's standing above her post-Acts of Vengeance body, it doesn't necessarily mean that post-Acts of Vengeance Betsy is being written out. But it's possible - and that would be disappointing and a mistake, IMO.

-Australian Outback

Anonymous said...

Ya’ll are crazy. This is clearly the rebooted Madame Mim. Disney was waiting to crossover and this just happened to be the best way to do it. After Sapphire Styx explodes, candy goes flying everywhere. Jubilee eats all the candy and then Betsy is inside of her. Jubilee then barfs fireworks onto the rocket, which explodes. A wormhole opens and Psylocke’s barf-candy-fireworks-essence flies through. Madame Mim is just chilling there and smacks Betsy’s essence into Jo’s body from The Facts of Life (Universe 71865). Back in 616, Mim seamlessly integrates and brings Kwannon back to life only to kill her seconds later, giving her Betsy’s original body. The uniform is a finale look for a third place contestant on Project Runway. Sorry Zub, try harder next time.

Anonymous said...

"All we did is gain another white female telepath that will be over shadowed by Jean Grey even more now"

Wrong. She's still a fucking ninja. Look at her fighting pose and the fucking psychic knives. Both Kwannon and Psylocke in the Sisterhood arcs were fighters in the original body. Your point is invalid.

Unknown said...

Not to mention, Jean Grey has already been overshadowing the Asian Psylocke for the past 6 months. She's just came back and has her own team and is a leader and has done some impressive feats with her telepathy while Betsy has been relegated to a sidebook where all she did was meditate for 12 issues.

Anonymous said...

LOL Jo from The Facts of Life!!!!!!! :))) Dyinggggg

-Australian Outback

Anonymous said...

Also, third place finish is right for that costume. I literally just read fashion articles a few days ago suggesting the off-the-shoulder trend being on its way out the door and pretty much over, why would they give her something that will make her look dated, let alone lack all the distinctive and 'signature' elements about her costume that are timeless and classic.

-AO

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Yo! I just flatlined after reading tha Facts of Life thing.

Outback, don’t hate on off-the-shoulder. She looks cute. Though, I do love the costume of the body on the ground too. So far, I still think Bets’ best costume was the Anka one. :-p

Unknown said...

@ Anonymous, thanks for sharing your own experiences of being Trans.

@ Rahsaan,

We will have to respectfully disagree.
Mainstream audiences don't know the history of the character like you and many people on here do. They just know Psylocke as an psychic, Asian woman with Ninja skills.

You cannot call it "faux representation" because when it comes to the depiction of racial minorities in the media, physical appearance matters significantly. Asian is Asian.
It's actually problematic that in 2018, there are not enough people of colour occupying LEADING roles on the X-Men Books. At least not the ones that remain in publishing.

Jean Grey and Kitty Pride have overshadowed many X-Women for the past few months, but that is only due to the decisions of editors and writers and not the characters themselves.
It also is a major issue that there are not many men or Trans people of colour featured in these books too.

The X-Men were supposed to be a metaphor for marginalized communities. So why not have the characters reflect that directly now?

Unknown said...

In my humble opinion, your trans analogy falls flat because unlike trans people who are not confortable with living in the bodies/gender they were assigned with when they were born, Psylocke has never ever felt like she was living in a wrong body or race.

Quite the contrary, that body was forced on her against her will by a man who wanted to remake his girlfriend out of her. Please note how this story was also very mysoginistic. She had no agency on the matter. She was violated body and soul by a man who wanted her as a sex slave to put it in a nutshell.

Immediately after the body swap, Betsy sought out Forge to reverse the process. She has also made it clear in several occasions that she hates what was done to her. This is actually the opposite of what trans people want.

But yes, I also agree the X-Men need more diversity. What we should do is stand by actual diverse characters and make the people in charge hear us out loud that we need more African-americans, latinxs, Asians, Native Americans, etc.

Where are Dani Moonstar, Karma, Sunfire? We need them back.

Benjamin Hutton said...

Revanche is hands down my favourite character. I'd love to see her back, why not in her original body?

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Unknown, you’re address ing Anonymous here, right? I actually disagreed with the trans anology. Also, while I’m cis gender, I lnow quite a few trans people and not all of them feel they were born in the wrong body, so I feel like Anonymous is speaking on their own experience. Some of my trans friends like their body jusy as it is and dislike that society forces them to pick a binary gender based on that body and that being said they identify as trans; not GNC.

And your point is exactly why I think thta trans comparison is incorrect. Psylocke asked Forge to correct. Also, we saw that every time Psylocke was offered a chance to reverse this like with Cassandra Nova and Jamie Braddock, she was tempted, but could not due to there being strings attached that went against her moral fiber. And each time, she was a bit sad after about the lost opportunity.

Also, again, she was socialized under the constryct of whiteness, so she would not consider herself to be a woman of color aside from being forced into that role, so that is why I call it faux diversity. To me her situation is like tolerance vs celebration, which is why I brought up all those Asian characters, who actually are not only phenotypically Asian, biut who were socialized as and strongly identify with their Asian backgrounds, which I think you sort of agree with?

To me, if someone cast Rachel Dolezal in something and said she represented black women, I’d be livid. if you listen to any interview with Rachel D, it becomes readily apparent that she modified her own body, because she fetishizes black women. Bettsy didn’t choose this, but Marvel thrust it her due to a fetish that was going on at that time. And Claremont to a degree in the past fetishizes non-white people when you look at stories like Acts of Vegeance and Demon Bear (where he also turnes two supporting characters from white to enslaved Native Americans).

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

As for being indistinguishable from other Marvel telepaths:

1. Betsy was never written like Jean or Emma or Xavier in the 80s. She was somewhere between all of them. She wanted to do good and always had good intent, but walked a very thin line between that goodness and savagery and had zero problem disregarding an individual’s rights with her powers if she thought it serbed the greater good. And thise individuals included her teammates as we saw countelss times. She was written a lot lile “Jeen” in that regard. Just with more maturity and purpose versus doing things out of curiosity. Also, that seem personality trait of questionable ethics is what got us into this Siege Perilous mess as she forced her friends through it. And it is in line with certain decisions the character has made in her current incarnation when deciding who lives and who dies.

2. The character’s lack of development outside of the example above in the 80s had less to do with her and more to do with the writers. The character has always been a goldmine of opportunity from her Captain Britain/Otherworld/STRIKE/Hellfire Club origins, but Claremont was biding his time and chose not to dive into any of that until the “race” change/ninja story and even with that, he was doing a cautionary tale it seems about being careful what one wishes for as Betsy got her wish to be a warrior, but it came with subjugation and changes to her body and mind that she absolutely did not want. So as FSaker pointed out above, with all that learned and with the current development we have seen of the character herself, there is absolutely no reason why a change to her true face would negate her potential as a main character and key X-Man. Especially, with all the deep source material we have yet to explore. For instance, I’d love to see a story tying Betsy to her old STRIKE role. Especially, now that she can physically fight. And I would love to see some use of her precognition again. Like another dilemma where she sees something that she wants to change, but now realizing what she did to the X-Men in taking away their freedom kf choice, she is stuck with a moral dilemma a la minority report.

Eduardo said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Eduardo said...

I compliment everyone for the productive and healthy discussion.
I think the change makes sense......though the body change may seem
repetitive or tiresome, I agree with Rahsaan when it comes to fulfilling
her question of being a warrior in her original body and it reminds me of that in one of my favorites stories of the australian team against Horde when she
showed was portrayed with metal under her skin which allowed her to fight him toe to toe. The change might work and I will love her in any body, since they preserve her as the sea of strenght in an ocean of sensibility that she is

Anonymous said...

You can't validly disagree with the trans analogy the above poster has made based on personal experience - in a way, that would be to make a blanket statement about what a valid trans experience is generally, rather than try to understand the individual, personal experience of someone who is trans. If that person can relate to Betsy as a result of personal experience, it's valid. On the other hand, blanket statements are not valid.

-AO

Unknown said...

I was just commending Anonymous for sharing their experiences of being Trans. As someone who is gay, I know how tough it can be to share those kind of experiences.
I think they were speaking more to the idea of how your mind, spirit or persona doesn't fit into the body you are in.
With Psylocke, yes there is more to it than that.

Regardless of Psylocke's backstory, the focus should be on who she is now. Having spent so many years in this body, why change it back?
The desire to be back in her old body and still be a fighter....it is debatable if she even wants that now.
Stories should ideally move forward and go into new places, putting her back in her old body just seems like an inability to write new and dynamic stories for this character.
But there are always NEW stories to uncover that don't require going backwards.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, I also question why change it back. IMO, it's not a restoration, it's a regression. While her current body is not her original body, nothing about the character suggests that she feels like her body isn't a fit. All the more reason why the trans analogy is a valid one - Betsy didn't just always want to be a warrior - inwardly, she always WAS a warrior, pre-siege. The bodyswap helped her better realize the expression of the warrior within - that she always was. If anything, this is to say that the current body is more of a fit than the original body, even though it's not the original. To revisit the old body, it's like saying, "I should've just stuck to the body I was born with, I want to go back to the way things were". Tell that to a trans person, see what reaction you'll get. Although the editorial decision was likely with good intentions, if she is going back to her old body, it sends completely wrong message in 2018. It's outdated thinking for the sake of nostalgia alone. Unlike some of the other characters being restored to their 'Classic Coke' versions, that doesn't work with Betsy - overall, IMO, it's a regression.

-AO

Alex V.W said...

@AO
I think the change back (if it's legit) has to deal with having an actual minority characters being actual minorities in comics/pop culture. We all know there are Psylocke fans who hated the body swap story. Some people don't even like the original idea of when she was supposed to just to look Asian through Spiral changing her actual body. There are also people who got used to the swap but had valid issues of when they'd draw her in traditional Asian clothing or imagery. Hell writers & artist weren't even sure for a long time what type of East Asian iconography & culture to use. There would be moments when they used Chinese culture & then Japanese. I remember when Betsy's mini series came out & one of the guys at the comic shop I go to hated the last page of the last issue. It was Betsy sitting down with a traditional Asian tea set & her room & some Asian design to it. Or the X-Women special that was drawn by that adult artist & they played her up in the mini qipao dress/asian sex doll look.
I was a kid & really didn't think much of it. He was like she's technically a white woman raised traditionally upperclass English & the whole mini was about her identity. He felt that the tea set & room should've been done to show her actual heritage.
In terms of Marvel & their representation strives currently, sometimes I think it has to do with the Disney merger. I'm half Korean & I have friends who are full Asian who had problems with Olivia Munn's casting. Saying she wasn't Asian enough or if Munn wasn't known for talking about her upbringing, you'd never know she was half Asian.
Same goes for Storms depictions in the films versus other media. I know African Americans who didn't like Halley Berry's casting because she's mixed with a lighter complexion. I also know people giving Alexandra Shipp the same treatment.
I often wonder if the body swap still happened & if they didn't sex Betsy up would the character have survived the 90's? Or would she have faded into obscurity?
Marvel has never really done well with a majority of their ethnic characters in the past. Asian, Latinx, Native American, etc. Even a prominent character like Jubilee faded away for a good while & new younger writers fought to re-establish the character.
If this is actually happening & not some cop out, I think it has to deal with a mix of Disney, shifting ideas & conversations of representation & the fact that minorities have become more vocal in terms of that.
I mean if this is permanent & she's either in Sapphires body or an actual duplicate of the White body she's still Betsy. I just hope she's used in a good story again because after Remender's X-Force she seemed to be fading away again.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Alex, precisely.

A lot of this is due to the fact that non-white people are holding Disney accountable. I actually heard a rumor that there may be some retweaking on New Mutants concerning the whitewashing of Sunspot with a phenotypically Euro-looking Bazilian. I hope that this rumor is true.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

And it would also be good of they do the same for Cecilia Reyes after they whitewashed that role once Rosario Dawson vacated.

Anonymous said...

Alex, yup. I get that that's the pretence to justify going back to the Caucasian body. I don't buy it though. She ain't no sex doll now, and hasn't been one for ages, so it looks way more blatantly racist to write out her Asian body and put her into a Caucasian one. Very weak argument, at this point in 2018.

Further, I've been glad to see characters going back to their classic Coke versions - Rogue getting back her spunkiness, for example. But Psylocke's case is a bit different - after all this time, post-Acts of Vengeance Psylocke IS actually Classic Coke Psylocke rather than the original.

-AO

AKO Star said...

I have one comment after this huge conversation. come to think of it yeah... Add this:

Variants are mostly lies. 2nd one showed Wolverine as a ghost and related to storm which had nothing to do with storm in that issue. 3rd showed Kitty and Logan which never happened add that Betsy's mind trick was most the comic. ... We all should relax and wait. a variant cover isn't always related. Remember Astonishing X-Men had variant of Psylocke holding her British flag, Raven vs Rogue, Fantomex replacing X.
which was all NOT TRUE. Add other comics before. Maybe they said Spoiler variant just to get people to stay focused on the issue and buy it.

I'll say if the variant is related, it's Kwanon. why:

If Betsy is dead in her body, drained or not, She would not be able to use her telepathy like that and mess up with Saphire. She never did such a thing in her previous deaths when she had the same powers.

Add to that Saphire drained Betsy and later on she's shocked of her death ? Saphire is crazy but she wouldn't kill without noticing

Hunt for Wolverine always had short outcomes from every issue I don't think the final will have that epic change in a marvel character plus. "One X-Man is changed for good" They didn't say it's Betsy. I mean Storm and Rogue are locked it could be one of them. Or the others. It can't be a full description for just one part of the problem. 3rs issue mentioned Kitty and domi I in description while over half of it was Betsy.

Anonymous said...

AKO, thought about that too, and there is a good chance you're right. But it would be a real tease to release this cover as a "spoiler variant" simply to generate sales. Plus, it would be even more of a stretch to have designed her a new costume for no reason other than a variant cover. Also, the decision to add the butterfly insignia and the psychic knives both to the standing figure suggests that it's not Kwannon but full on Betsy standing there. The costume thing alone makes me think this time it ain't no trick, although I would prefer it to be and will wait to see what the result turns out to be.

-AO

AKO Star said...

I prefer it to be a trick. What makes me think it's not Betsy is this and you habe the roght to correct me:

Betsy was only telepathic but when she got the Asian body she developed new enhancements thanks to the strong bosy which included the psychic knives & enhanced telepathy. If she returns to her own bidy even at its prime, that body didn't have the enhancements as they were related to the body not the soul.

outfits to me aren't a big deal because it is possible. Remember Variants and comics covers for Weapon X suggested that Sabertooth will be the less feral one ( Who was in uncanny X-Men 2016) but we got the crazy old man. Not to mention not all characters of a cover are always included. And that's been proven so may times in X-Men.

Plus Dead ends which concludes hunt for Wolverine had issue 1 with our current Betsy. I don't think they put her like that in a future cover if she will have her British one back.

Anonymous said...

I hope you're right! :) But I don't recall any of those covers being released deliberately and specifically as "spoiler variants".

The telekinetic thing never really made sense to begin with so I'm sure if they gave her telekinesis in her Caucasian body they'll just come up with something and be done with it, lol.

-AO

Alex V.W said...

@Rahshaan

It seemed like some writers where trying to address the more forced Asian culture aspects of her. Especially during the all female X-Team series. She seemed to be using other more European TK weapons (longbow, crossbow, mace, etc). I thought it was a clever way to update the close combat psychic knife
& not use the psychic katana as much either. I know some fans hated the new weapons.
I heard about the New Mutants mess & while I admit the trailer did have me interested in the horror take, I was meh on the Sunspot casting & then when Rosario backed out. I really like Alice Braga, but she's not who I pictured as Cecilia. Don't know if you're on Tumblr but there's been a lot of discourse over Sunspot. Some saying they should be happy an ethnic actor was cast at all. Others saying he looks like how Sunspot is drawn now with a lighter tone & slightly more Eurocentric features. Then there's anger of Karma not being in it even though she came after the Demonbear story. The writer said she was to be in the sequel but now with the Marvel/Disney/Fox things happening I think all X movies are done until a full MCU reboot happens. Dark Phoenix & New Mutants will probably be the last of the Fox/Singerverse.
The guy who's playing Cannonball said the reshoots where to make it more horror. That the trailer made the film look like a straight up horror film when the finished project is more of a PG-13 small budget thriller.
I like that sassy Rogue is back. I like that they're trying the marriage thing with her & Gambit. I like that Jubilee got her powers back, cause honestly vampires are just not cool & at the same time she's greatly matured & no longer the "X-kid" even though there's dozens of teen characters running around now.

@AO They've definitely tried to make sure she was no longer the sex doll anymore. From the eventual updates of her uniform in X-Force to the current suit she's been wearing for years now. At the same time she's unfortunately known for the thong cause it's marketable & iconic for better or worse. I'm trying to think if any of her current merchandise is in the bodysuit. Even the new figure is the thong.
Have there ever been any official merchandise (toys, busts, etc) of the White body?

Anonymous said...

@Alex

I think the Caucasian body has been very infrequently featured in merch but I don't follow merch. I would assume the Hand costume will always be preferable with merch.

I am really glad they gave Jubilee her powers back too. The vampire thing seemed like a contrived effort to capitalize on the vampire trend in TV and movies that is now clearly over. It was already tired by the time it was introduced.

-AO

Unknown said...

The new costume is nice, but it's not that creative either. It could just be a one-off thing.
There is only one issue left in this series, and they still haven't brought in the real, present version of Wolverine yet. Just a ghost version.
So they need to do that, maybe elaborate a bit more on Magneto's presence in this series, save Storm and Rogue (who don't need saving) and also deal with the Psylocke issue. Seems like a lot to do in just one book.

The original Psylocke is pretty much irrelevant now. Mainstream audiences only know the Asian version. You folks are making some good arguments in favour of this position.
Where exactly is the proof that so many readers actually want to see the character regress back to her original self?

FSaker said...

"There is only one issue left in this series, and they still haven't brought in the real, present version of Wolverine yet"

It's unlikely that the real Wolverine will appear in it, considering this is just one of four simultaneous miniseries focusing on his return (besides the X-Women, Logan is also being searched by the New Avengers, Daredevil, and his main antagonists like Sabretooth and Lady Deathstrike). He may appear in the one-shot book that will be used as the conclusion to all four stories (and whose cover curiously still shows Psylocke in the Asian body).

FSaker said...

...I just realized now that my previous comment may be interpreted as an indication that I don't believe Psylocke will return to her original appearance. That's not what I meant, it was just a curiosity pointed out (and if she is getting a body swap, it still makes sense that the cover for the final one-shot shows her in her old body; showing the new one would spoil the surprise).

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Alex,

Regarding Sunspot, that casting is all kinds of wrong, because Roberto's origin story is about anti-blackness and his powers manifesting while being brutalized in anti-black, physical assault. It's one of the few times that editorial has expressly linked the to the racism allegory the X-Men are based on. Also, that is why the eurocentrizing of Bobby in the comics is egregious. Though, of late, it seems like recent Avengers artists have slowly been morphing his features back to what they used to be.

I studied abroad in Brazil and all my black and brown friends there were livid at that white washing. Also, regarding Alice Braga, you are correct in that she is a wonderful actress. However, she is a white Brasileira, who looks nothing like a black,Puerto Rican. one of my acquaintances was like, "Oh, but she is latina and will nail the role, because of her accent." I had to tell him as a person who spent a decent amount of time in Northeast Brazil and who went to high school in the Bronx that no Brazilian accent sounds remotely like a Bronx, Puerto Rican accent. Cecilia is a Bronx Puerto Rican. Latinx os not a monolith where individuals are interchangeable.

I find both castings to be extremely lazy on the part of the filmmakers. Regarding Bobby, there are a sea of actors who can act well who could have filled that role. Just look at City of God or Netflix' 3%. I'm sure they could have found someone who fits Bobby more accurately and who can both speak English and act between all the black and brown Brazilians in Brazil and the US. As for Cecilia, when Rosario had to bow out, they could have gotten someone like Gina Torres, Reagan Gomez-Preston, Zoe Saldana or a host of other lesser known but able black, latina actresses.

FSaker said...

"I had to tell him as a person who spent a decent amount of time in Northeast Brazil and who went to high school in the Bronx that no Brazilian accent sounds remotely like a Bronx, Puerto Rican accent"

True. After all, Brazil and Puerto Rico don't even have the same languages (Portuguese in the former, Spanish in the latter).

Each country in Latin America is quite different from the others in many aspects (culture, accent, politics and so on), and Brazil manages to be even more different due to its language. It's hard to even define Brazil's own characteristics, as due to its continental size, its regions are very different among themselves.

Alex V.W said...

@Rashaan,
I loved City of God & Gina Torres would've gotten my butt in a seat. I like all the actresses you mention, no hate against Alice Braga but she's just wrong for the role. It's good to hear that current Avengers artist are trying to make sure he looks more like his original depiction. The only reason they got Henry Zaga for Sunspot is that he's marketably safe & at the time of filming he was on 13 Reasons Why & Teen Wolf. I forgot that this is the second time they've removed his Afro-Brazilian heritage until I was watching Days of Future Past last night.

Considering the smaller budget you're right when they could've cast someone unknown. The 2 biggest names in it are Anya Taylor Joy & Maisie Williams & I'm sure they aren't demanding large salaries.

Body swap again or not, I think we all just want Betsy to be written in a good book again that goes on longer than 10-12 issues. Remenders run had some problems but that seems to have been the longest & generally better reviewed series she's been in since her resurrection by Claremont.

I really am wondering what Disney/Marvel have planned with the rights now. How long until it's all rebooted?

AKO Star said...

Agreed I ha shows for astonishing X-Men but rheirnficus on her was the best in conclusion issue. But the previous ones didn't focus or bring her well. Uncanny X-Men 2016 to me had the best art of her and showed a lot if action for her as well. Hope theu do something similar to her.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

FSaker,
Language... Precisely. This acquaintance is so frequently strong and wrong that I guarantee he would have argued that Spanish and Portuguese are the same. Any correct about Brazil's inner diversity. I studied in Salvador which is vastly different than say Curitiba.

Alex,
Gina would be the perfect fit both phenotypically and in term of action star! I wonder if anyone even considered asking her. I'm gonna guess no. And as you pointed out, there is no reason why New Mutants needs anyone aside from unknowns. The larger public barely knows who the New Mutants are. I cannot tell you how many times I've mentioned the New Mutants to so-called fans (people who basically only became familiar with the X-Men through the various animated shows since the one of the 90s) and they are like "Who?" They could have casted more accurately for this film and still achieved what they wanted. Unless, what they wanted was whitewashing... Then they get an A for effort.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Eduardo,

Thank you for that. And thanks to everyone else to. I am digging this conversation too. We're having a passionate, heady convo but not bickering like fanpeople often do on forums regarding facets of the characters we follow. And everyone is making salient points even while disagreeing. This is dope.

Psyloco said...

This fans demand for Betsy's british body back started in the early 00's when she was being poorly written, was killed off panel for no good reason, and then she came back to be a support character with almost zero development.
And fans created the theory writers were not interested in give Betsy more space because her biography was too complicated and readers wouldn't enjoy it. And the solution for the problem would be to put her back in her original body.

But Rick Remender (and others after him) showed it was not true. Betsy didn't (and don't) need this cycle of mourning her old body/confront her past/go through another tranformation (body swap, crimson dawn, powers swap, etc). She could move on and be part of new and different stories. All she needed was good writers. And luckly she had been in good hands, and now she is a more valuble and rich character for the X-men universe then she had ever been before.

I really hope this cover is just a trick. Mystery in Madripoor is a mediocre story, and use Betsy transformation to level up it is ridiculous.

AKO Star said...

Oh I have a question. In X-Men gold the wedding issue, Logan was there (meaning it was after hunt for Wolverine) And after the wedding Betsy was in the latest issue so far, in her Asian body.

Isn't that the answer we need ?

Anonymous said...

@AKO I haven't read it, but if that's the case then there we have it. Thanks.

-AO

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

AKO,

That may or may not be the case. We have to see. Mystery in Madripoor is just when the X-Men realize the body is missing. Wolvie may have been lurking about for a while before then, no?

AKO Star said...

That's possible. But you think Logan disappeared and as Hunt For Wolverine start suggested, I think someone is using him, as a subject. Meaning he isn't free. then again you can be right. we'll have to wait and see

Unknown said...

Hoping for a new All-Female X-Men book with a great writer and artist.
The X-Women just didn't shine much in this miniseries.
What was the point in showing the flashbacks that Psylocke and Domino had with Wolverine?
We already knew they each had a history with him...even if just based on the fact that they are all X-Men.

FSaker said...

"Hoping for a new All-Female X-Men book with a great writer and artist"

Oooh, now that would be great!

Is G. Willow Wilson still working at Marvel? While her arc for the first X-Women book didn't impress me much at first, I later re-read it and it's really good. I think she'd be the ideal choice for this kind of book.

(as for the flashbacks, I guess it's just a way to reinforce how important Wolverine is to them, even if two of them - probably Rogue and Storm, who did absolutely nothing so far - won't even get these flashback scenes...)

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

FSaker,

Here's an update on Willow:

http://comicbook.com/marvel/2018/07/24/uncanny-x-men-writer-theory-jonathan-hickman/

Eric Ton said...

Hey Guys, while we're still arguing under the subject of whether Psylocke is an omega level telepath or mutant. Let me remind you that the final issue of all the Wolverine book shows Psylocke is still in her normal state. Can we assume that this transformation from the last issue or bout could be her psychic manifestation growing simply more powerful after her attack on Saphire? I guess she somehow absorbs all of Saphire psychic ability to manifest a new body or new ability within the original Psylocke. As much as I like the current state of Betsy right now, I feel like it is too easy for her to simply give up her body after many years. I believe either Kwannon survive and manifest in Saphire or a psychic projection of her astral form which seems to be more logical.

This can only be explained through the death seed that was given to her in Uncanny X-fore where it granted her new abilities that have not been unlocked yet.

FSaker said...

Thank you, Rahsaan! But I didn't get it; this article lists her as a possible writer for Uncanny X-Men but says she's currently working on Vertigo and writing Wonder Woman... doesn't that mean she's no longer employed by Marvel? Or is she a freelance comic book writer?

Eric, regarding your question, that's a possibility. But the body swap can also happen for real, and the cover for the final issue only shows her in her Asian body in order not to spoil the surprise from Mystery in Madripoor. We'll have to wait and see.

MellyMel said...

You know I could be down with this new body switch if this body was more durable and gave our girl enhanced strength/agility. That would be dope. I just don't ever wanna see that clanky armour and cap outfit. That was terrible.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Guys, I just thought of something last night. I don’t think anyone here mentioned it, but if Marvel is being crafty, perhaps this all ties in with Jamie’s recent resurrection and he has a part to play,

MellyMel said...

Rahsaan,

that is a valid point. I thought it was random that he'd show up in a book not directly related to Betsy. Maybe you're on to something

David D-Pole said...

Horrible. I really don't want another body swap. And especially not one thats regressive

David D-Pole said...

Also forgot to mention if any of you guys wanna join this Psylocke group on Facebook please do. Lots of Betsy fans from all around the world

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1565296733722818/

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

I will say one other thing on this topic. Even though these characters are fictional, many of us grew up with them. I’m 40 and old enough to vividly recall how close Betsy was to Brian and Megan. She has never been quite as close to them since the change. We could argue that is writing, but in real life I could see this all being a deal for everyone who loves you. I’d be curious to see her and het family and friends discuss all this if she is really changed to have her own face again. I also think if this was a real person that I knew what a constant mindfuck it must be to look in a mirror and see a face that isn’t yours and doesn’t look like your family and to do something like sacrifice your life for all of reality with your friends on national TV only to later have the world know you’re alive, but unlike your friends, you look like a whole other person who was a criminal at that. So even though this is a fake character, it is one who was always in my top 5 X-Men even before she became “cool.” Something about her always resonated with me, so like she is a real friend, I want her to have her own face back.

Jeferson Santos said...

Well... The forum is on fire! Congrats to the "marketing team" for create this looong discussion between the fans. Of course, I can't let this without put my opinion: it doesn't matter to me in what body Betsy resides... I just don't will accept you use this "change" to mess her power levels AGAIN. She is actually a very powerful and respected psychic (thanks Olivia Munn) and her powerness is unmatchable like never before. Thanks.

Unknown said...

G Willow Smith is on Ms Marvel now, and she will soon start writing the Wonder Woman series.

Psylocke has been established in the body she has now. It would be too much of a hassle to change her back....then probably go back to the other body twelve issues later :P.
Yes, it would be difficult to look in the mirror for a while after a body swap. But she has been like this for decades now.
The solicitation for the final issue of this miniseries mentions a ghost rescuing Psylocke. It's likely to either the original Betsy or Logan.

Anonymous said...

“too much of a hassle”
Is it? I feel like people are conflating their personal experiences with the character with the actual storylines she’s capable of being used in. It actually isn’t that hard to change her back. Your individual experience with Betsy isn’t the end of what where she can go under the right writer. Personally, I don’t think there’s any way this isn’t going to result in her going back to the original body, but what I think is more important than that is that Betsy be given the opportunity to grow, regardless of whichever body she’s in. Fans take to twitter and scream at writers all too often now and I would hate to lose the chance at some quality Betsy stories over people mad about the body swap. She isn’t “just another telepath” in the old body. Elizabeth Braddock is more than the body she’s in. What I want most to happen next is for Betsy to be given a story beyond “oh no, poor Warren” “golly, I hate Fantomex” or “is killing okay.” All have been done, repeatedly (some well, some not). The representation argument is just too dicey. It erupts in arguments about the body swap every single time, and honestly we have other Japanese mutants who deserve the spotlight. Changing her back isn’t regressing, it’s setting her free (at least in my opinion). I’m grateful this group has been such a beacon of mature discussion. Even those I don’t agree with are presenting their points in thoughtful ways and it makes me so happy to see.
D

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Decades in real life time. That is true,, but only a few years in comic book time, so one could posit that is why this is still a deal for her, including how emotional she gets when she sees her prior form and when villains ridicule and joke at her expense about being having a face that is not her own.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Also (and I am fully cognizant that we are talking about a fictional character), even if real decades had passed by in comic book time, do you think that it would still not suck to wake up every day and see a face that is not your own in the mirror? As lovers of Elizabeth, should we want her to be able to see her own face again? That's my argument. If this person was a friend of yours, wouldn't you want that for them versus the constant reconciliation of a face that isn't yours.

Granted, this entire body swap retcon with Kwannon was not very thought out. At least in Claremont's original story (although fantasy in of itself), identical height,weight and the fact that Wolverine recognized her face was explained. In the Nicieza/Lobdell retcon-followed by another-retcon, all of those subtleties, like height, weight were glossed over with "genetic splicing." Also, there are subtleties that any human would have to get used to, like adjusting to the different aspects of someone else's body, like their personal scent, their hair texture, their complexion, etc. (Hell, most of these aside from personal scent would be adjustments that would need to be addressed even if there was one body that had been changed.) Again, I know I'm diving deep, but I feel like at least in a scifi/fantasy novel or a very well-scripted comic book (like some of the really adult ones), all of these idiosyncrasies would be covered by a good writer. Maybe that is why the change always felt bizarre and uncomfortable to me. Even before the Lobdell/Nicieza/Kwannon fiasco.

Anonymous said...

D, I'd say the inverse. To now revert her back to her old face for 'growth' reasons is not convincing. Wishing and pining for her old face back sounds more like holding onto a past that she's moved on from, and is largely for nostalgia reasons. Nostalgia - fun to entertain at times, but never a good reason to hold onto the past, and that definitely sounds much more like an expression of your internal visualization of the character rather than important for the character herself.

Rahsaan - her current face *is* her face. She's already accepted that in several story arcs. People change. Moving on with life has little to do with trying to make your face look the way it once used to. Again, that would be holding onto the past and signify a failure to accept change and move on, which is not at all in her character.

-AO

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

AO,

Maybe if she looks like her old self again, we'll finally see a scene with her and Doug catching up as old friends and two adults. LOL.

Doug: Betsy! Where have you been all this time??

Betsy: Doug, I have been here the whole time.

Doug: WTF? Where?!?

Betsy: Right here. You didn't think to ask who the purple-haired woman was who Scott regularly assigned telepathic duties to, because Emma was too busy being Emma?

Doug: That was you?? Get the fuck outta town! So why did you look that way and now look like you again?

Betsy:Let's just skip that whole thing and I can show you all the neat tricks I learned with making weapons that are the focused totality... You know what, I'm just gonna show you some cool stuff. Also, you really have grown into your uniform.

Doug:Yes, I have. Very much so...

Anonymous said...

Rahsaan, I texted Betsy earlier today and mentioned Doug and she said she's so over it. She ghosted him in 1995. He won't give up though. She screenshotted me these texts from last weekend:

Doug 3am: heyyyyy
Doug 3:03am: what's up?
Doug 3:04: helloooo
Doug 3:13: wanna come over?
Doug 4:00: i have food
Doug 4:32: B**ch.

Also... who cares about Douglocke. Doug is like so '87.

-AO

(P.S. Unfortunately, I'm convinced they're making Betsy caucasian again, so who knows, you may get your wish! :p )



Rahsaan Chisolm said...

AO,

I just flatlined at that ghosted shit!

FSaker said...

Can Marvel hire one of you guys to write the UXM relaunch? These dialogues/texts are hilarious (and kinky)!

Although I must say I'm quite surprised with Doug calling Psylocke "Betsy", instead of "Ms. Braddock". Sure, she's not much older than him, but come on boy, you first met her when she was an adult and you were a child; have some manners...

Anonymous said...

What's worse: a comic event happening that you want to experience with artwork that is sub-par, or the event not happening at all? This story would have so much more weight with different lines.

Unknown said...

@ Anonymous, I appreciate the mature conversation happening here as well. However speaking about individual commenter's personal experiences of a character is not very mature.
Also, those other Japanese characters will not get the representation they need, because of a small group of readers always have an issue with diverse representation.

@Rahsaan, there has been no indication in the last decade of comics that Psylocke wants her old face back. She has had plenty of time to get used to it.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Unknown,

There have been several times:

1. She asked Forge to undo what the Hand did after X-Tinction Agenda.

2. When Casandra Nova gave her the chance to align with her to get her face back, she was sad that she could not as it would mean helping the former.

3. When Jamie offered "a cleanse" the only reason she didn't accept was due to having to sell out Fantomex.

4. Also, when the Reavers and Shogo both poked fun at her being trapped in the body of someone else and attributed basically called her derogatory names based on being white on the inside and yellow on the outside, she got very emotional.

5. She also was adamant about killing the Reavers due to their coercion forcing her to go through the Siege and result in her current predicament.

I think there are some other instances of I take more time to think them over. Some of these we could are up to how a reader infers the dialogue, but I would say they make a strong case for her wanting to look like her family and the way she was born. Granted, she doesn't seem to hate her Asian face as it is pretty like her Anglo one, but I inferred from her interactions above that she doesn't prefer her new form over her old and would in fact like her old. She has said that she has become the woman she wanted to be in many ways, but I've always read that to mean the warrior she was forged into and being able to act on impulses she always had, which she can now do thanks to her experiences even if she has her old face.

Unknown said...

Yes, but it is up to interpretation and not clearly stated. If you look at the examples that you shared Rahsaan, she had the chance to change back but didn't.
If you look at the direction that comics are going now, there have actually been a decrease in leading characters in established stories who are also people of colour. The characters exist, but are not being used.

Unknown said...

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Unknown, I agree with you about the reduction of leading characters of color which is why I remain steadfast in my belief that the X-Men’s heyday was when they were helmed by Claremont and Simpson who wrote for diverse groups.

As for Psylocke, we have never actually had a story where she was offered her original body without strings attached by someone maniacal and evil, so the choice has always been coerced and under duress and left innocent lives in peril, so she always had to decline if she didn’t want to be a complete asshole, so it’s not a fair assesssment to say she walked away as if she was just carefree.

Again, I know many disagree, but I would prefer diverse leads like Dani, Xian, Cecilia, Jubilation, Takeshi (Wiz Kid for who those who forgot him), David Alleyne, Sooraya Qadir, Nezhno Abidemi and Noriko Asida versus Betsy looking like Kwannon but still being Betsy. I know you all feel differently, but I’m still of the mind that Betsy is like a Rachel Dolezal just without the premeditation on the former’s part.

Anonymous said...

Sorry, but the Rachel Dolezal comparison is false: Rachel Dolezal was pretending and capitalized on deceit. Psylocke doesn't pretend, deceive, or lie about her identity.

That issue of identity hinged on underlying actions. It was never really about the surface of the face.

-AO

Vigmed said...

It'd be somewhat funny, and kinda sad, if a lot of X-Men were written to show that they'd forgotten Betsy was even caucasian to start. I mean, there should be more than a few of the newer mutants that have only known this version of her - same for the readers.

If this happens I very much want to see her vexed with the change and not accept it wholly at the beginning. And yet, being who she has become I can also see her coping, adapting, to the change quite effortlessly.

But it would be more interesting to see how she deals with it over time.

Man, there a lot of comments on this post.

Anonymous said...

Who cares when pencillers never knew how to draw asian Pyslocke since Jim Lee and Marc Silvestri outback from 1991 (only Andy Kubert and Terry Dodson made an effort). She will look like exactly the same.

Unknown said...

I'm sorry, but stating that Psylocke turned down every chance of getting her body back is such a dishonest thing to say. Here's some context:

1. The Red Queen gave her body back in exchange for her being her braiwashed puppet.

2. Jamie wanted to give her body back in exchange for her selling out Fantomex to be murdered.

3. Cassandra wanted to give her body back in exchange for working alongside her to unleash the Great Corruption.

Of couse she wouldn't accept it. She's a fucking hero for god's sake.

What is fact is that Psylocke wanted the process reverted immediately after it happened and sought out Forge for this. This is canon and is the only time she expressed anything about it.

FACTS and Betsy's actual canonical thoughts about the whole thing just proves that she's still not okay with living inside someone else's body:

"It can't be fixed?" "The Hand used magic as well as medicine to do the job. Even Forge can't puzzle out quite how". Uncanny X-Men #273

"My body is Asian, but my mind remains European!" X-Men #22

"I almost feel like a stranger to my own body. The last time I felt like this was when my body was transformed from British to Asian." Uncanny X-Men #350

"He was trying to bring his lover back to life. But he couldn't... Kwannon's mind was gone. So he remade her out of me. What he did was evil." Psylocke #2

"You took everything from me. Everything I was, my whole life." Psylocke #4

"Without you, I'd have my own eyes! My own body! My old life!" Uncanny X-Force #6

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Unknown, I need to hire you as my defense attorney. You are good with unearthing incontrovertible evidence!

Anonymous said...

You guys are missing the point.

Everybody who has scars initially wishes the harm had never been done. But you accept it as part of life and who you have become. Scars make you who you are. The body swap is more fairly and accurately analogized to battle scars.

Unknown has presented examples of Psylocke being human. Wishing the harm had never been done is part of the process of acceptance and eventually moving on. It is not incontrovertible evidence that she is actively wishing or hoping to turn things back.

That said, it looks likely you guys are getting your wish. We will know for sure soon enough!

Love,
-AO




Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Now, Outback... Don't be that way. If Marvel is not tricking us, I guarantee you will come to be happy with the change. After all, you are a fan of the Outback days. As long as she doesn't wear a cape and armor again, I think we'll be all right! :-)

Everyone, would you like to see her having precognitive flashes again? I miss that aspect of her power. Wasn't that he psychic abilities began? I hope with this change if not fake-out that we start seeing more homage to stuff like that. Besides, prescience is a useful ability as we saw when she saved the team from being annihilated by the Reavers.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Outback,

I see your point about scars. That being said, several readers above commented that Psylocke prefers her current state. I think what Unknown has shown evidence of as that is not the case. Tolerating and accepting a situation is unchangeable not the same as preferring it. Do you agree?

Anonymous said...

Rahsaan,

I understand that you are a fan of old Betsy. As you know, so was I. But let's get real - you want her back not because there's a good reason. You want her back because that is what *you* want. And that's okay. As a fan, you are entitled to express what you want. But let's call a spade a spade. You are expressing what you want dogmatically, persistently, in an effort to exert some kind of pressure on whoever may be listening so that they will give you want to see. I think sometimes that kind of pressure works. It worked re: giving her an "X" on her sash, and then it worked with giving her a new costume altogether. But will it have worked in giving her back her old body?

Unknown's arguments are not "incontrovertible evidence" of anything at all. They are taken out of context and presented as if they were her present feelings, when in fact some of those are lifted from decades old comics and/or occurred freshly after the incident. If you have been manipulated or hurt in any way, wouldn't you want that reversed? You are still coming to terms with it and expressing that hurt. Even if part of Betsy wishes she could go back in time (don't we all), she's come a long way since then. In the event she were presented with her old body, magically, without any consequences, those examples do not prove whether or not in the present day she would actually go through another body swap, whether or not part of her wishes she could go back in time or not. In short, it's not "incontrovertible evidence" of anything. That's really stretching it.

Further, what is compelling about the character is not what she wants but how she's played the hand she's been dealt. After everything she's learned about herself, from living through the Siege, Spiral and Mojo, the Hand, does it really seem like a wise decision to simply reverse the experiences that have made her the compelling character she is today? It's true that she hasn't been presented with an opportunity to have her old body back without there being a price tag attached to it. But let's look at what happened with the Siege Perilous - in a sense, going through the Siege gave her what she wished for.... at a price. Nothing is for free. There are consequences. She's learned that. So after all the lessons she's learned, it would be wise to reverse all the experiences/lessons that have made her stronger? Wrong.

You're right, I was a fan of her in the Outback days. But that was then, and I recognize that she wasn't as compelling a character then as she is now - historically, but also visually. There is a huge difference.

That is what makes part of me think that it may in fact be more likely that she is remaining in her current body. Her 'Hand' form is too compelling in toys, too embedded in the minds of current fans, too much of what makes her recognizable as Psylocke. Why would they reverse all that and confuse things even more? Perhaps the ghost from the past is Jamie. But could Kwannon be restored as Revanche? While the body swap storyline was poorly done, there is potential in developing Kwannon as Revanche that hasn't been explored.

-AO

Unknown said...

AO, I'm sorry but your argument that Psylocke is too popular in her Hand ninja form to be changed doesn't hold water at all. Beast is a far more popular character than Psylocke will ever be. He was changed from human to ape to cat and to whatever weird Sasquatch thing he is now. This has never harmed the character's popularity at all. Comics are a dying medium and doesn't really much affect other media anymore, as Beast is always presented in ape form (his most popular form) in video games, cartoons, etc. Likewise, Psylocke is still gonna remain mostly the same (ie: ninja skills, butterfly, katanas, psyknives, etc.) The only major difference is gonna be a lighter hue of purple in her hair and a new uniform. You really think people is gonna get that much confusing because Betsy got a new uniform considering 90% of artists draw all the faces the same regardless of race?

Not to mention, what really this allegedly popularity of ninja Psylocke got her? One cartoon episode in 1995, one cartoon episode in 2008, 1 minute cameo in a 2006 movie, and 5 minutes of screentime in a 2018 movie where her name wasn't even mentioned. What did they all have in commom? She was either a villain or an anti-hero with no personality. You guys really overstimate Psylocke's popularity. As much as I love her, she's as much as a nobody to people who doesn't read comics. She didn't become popular because she was suddenly ninjified. She became popular because EVERY X-MEN became popular in the early 90s as the franchise was at its peak.

As for the appeal of Psylocke playing the hand she's been dealt, I'm gonna beg to differ. Every storyline dealing with the bodyswap was poorly written and harmed her more than did any good. It's been 30 years and not a single good story ever came out of it. Acts of Vengance? convulated and dated. Sisterhood? Trash. The Kwannon Saga? One of the worst stories in the X-Men canon. There wasn't any payoff to Psylocke as a character. In 30 years, not even once any writer bothered to showcase Betsy's feelings and how losing her white privilege affected her. It could make a great story, but alas, as you can see nothing interesting or of note ever came out of this particular storyline. It hasn't served a purpose in years other than the cliched "Hey I"m a villain I'm gonna give your body back if you help me destroy the world". What makes you think this is compelling?

Alas, if Betsy chooses her real body this time in Madripoor #4, obviously the writer is gonna have her say that's what she always wanted and this is gonna be her new canon.

Rahsaan Chisolm said...

Outback and Unknown,

I'm enjoying this conversation.

"The Kwannon Saga" is the perfect name for that hack job string of arcs, including the Psylocke mini. LOL.

Now that you guys bring up all the arcs about this, Acts of Vengeance was literally the best of them and that's actually not hard to do. It was enjoyable despite seeming like a hallucination more than reality and being deliberately cryptic. Probably, because the Claremont of yesterday was better than the Nicieza, Lobdell, Fraction and Yost.

Regarding Fraction's arc, do any of you know if dude ever at least tried to explain the holes in his plot or did he just assume the audience was too dumb to care? Such as:

1. Was the Red Queen really Madelyne or not?
2. How did the Red Queen get Psylocke from the Crystal Palace or wherever it was the Exiles were?
3. If Red Queen was controlling Psylocke, then who the hell was that demon-Psylocke who was shown to also be in the Betsy body with Psylocke and why was it at all necessary to the plot?
4. After Psylocke killed the Betsy body, how did she just slip back into the Kwannon body? Was it due to psychic potential and being able to just shit her consciousness wherever, such as Xavier and Emma and Jean have done? Odd, since she was being written as almost non-telepathic at the time, unless we attribute to untapped potential (which I could accept).
5. Is it better to just not ask any of these questions and just forget the entire Sisterhood thing?

Anonymous said...

Unknown, you missed the point again but I'm not going to try to get through to you as you clearly will just reframe everything to suit your interests so it's like talking to a wall.

Rahsaan, yeah, I think the whole Sisterhood thing was a mess and we're just meant to go along with it even if it didn't make any sense. I almost feel like the Mystery in Madripoor thing is a 2.0 version of the Sisterhood arc and they're trying to correct what they might see as a lost opportunity to put her back in her Caucasian body. So probably best to just forget the sisterhood thing.

-AO